Eyes Wide Open: Part 2, Divorce, Tongues and LGBTQ
Editor’s note: Again, with changed names I have artificially positioned these interviews into a forum like discussion. With a few modifications I have tried to faithfully articulate the thoughts of each participant. Some added dialogue was used to give the appearance of a discussion. The question at hand, continues to be “how has your theology changed over the years”? The themes that emerged are those of the participants and represent repeated themes in my conversations.
Moderator: Lydia, earlier you spoke of a twisted theology that suggests God’s blessing is dependent on our following the rules. Never mind there is no consensus on what those rules are, who gets to make them and how do we live them out. As a result, too often we create labels, and ideological camps to symbolically punish or reject people who violate our standards.
Junias: My husband Timothy and I know something about those labels and rejection. Today we are happily married but it is a second marriage. Shortly after Bible College we both got married. We both started in ministry with our new respective spouses and early on both of our marriages failed. For this purpose, why is irrelevant but in practical terms it meant the end of vocational ministry in the PAOC or for that matter any other “evangelical denomination”. For all intents and purposes, divorce tattoo’s one with the letter “F” for failure on your ministerial transcript.
For divorcee’s there is little room for second chances in our church culture, especially should one get remarried as we did to each other.[1] And regretfully from here there is little point in talking about any calling that led us to Bible College.
I still tried. I applied for jobs in family and children's ministries and was turned down time and time again. Finally, not wanting another rejection. I accepted my fate and resigned myself to working outside of the church. I applied for a job at Chapters, but even there I was turned down. Apparently, with a Master’s degree I was too educated and not hip enough.
I finally got a call to work as a part-time “co-ordinator of volunteers” in our church. I confess, at first, I was reluctant to proceed. I was done! But then my husband Timothy who was going through his own struggles gently chastened me. He said, “will you take your gifts, your passions, and your talents, to work and honor God in a secular organization that does not share your values in any way, and not apply them in a church context. And I said YES, that's exactly what I mean. And he said, “Do you think maybe that's just a little bit of skewed thinking.” “You're right. I'm becoming resentful,” I said. “And I don’t want to be that way.” And so, I applied, and I got the job.
There are challenges I struggle with. I'm administrative staff and in a role that I know I can do. I had to learn some skills like data processing systems, and I've applied myself in every possible way to advancing the programs, the training, and I've enjoyed it. I really have. Yet there are pieces I want to add that I know I can to this picture that don't fit the administrative title. But I am learning to be content with where I am.
Timothy: Divorce is painful. On a positive note, I would not have met Junias otherwise. I was happy when Junias got the position in the church even though official vocational Christian ministry ended for me. I think however, that the definition of ministry is so incredibly narrow. I have 15 people on my caseload where I literally have mothers going, like you saved my life. In my present job I am doing many of the things that pastors are doing and yet, for some reason, I'm no longer deemed “pastoral” even among my former college friends.
Through this whole process I have learned something about the mercy and grace of God. When I went to Bible College, I confess I leaned on the legalistic side of things. I felt I needed a rigid stance on a wide range of issues, like speaking in tongues, homosexuality and so forth. I was a “good” Pentecostal. I had little room for failure, doubts, or questions. Divorce changed that. Either your dogmatic theology changes or it drowns you. Fortunately, perhaps like Job while others abandoned me, to my surprise, Jesus did not.
How have I changed today? I find it hard to base a whole entire sect of Christianity on two verses in the Bible that talks about tongues. I know it's more complicated than that, but I think that the gospel is not as rigid as what we’ve made it out to be. I really do think that the gospel message is simply to love one another and help other people. It's not how many people we can get into a pew? The whole love one another is the thing that trumps everything, right? Like even with homosexuality. I grew up with a friend who came out to me when I was 15. And then I went to Bible college and people were telling me I couldn't be friends with people like that. Where is love your neighbour?
Today as I get older, I am still trying to figure out what I believe so that I can raise my kids and not damage them to the level I was damaged growing up Pentecostal.
Moderator. All I can say at this point you are far from being alone in having to navigate your spiritual walk with God and finding a place in the church following a divorce. And these problems are not exclusive to the Pentecostal church. Churches in the broader holiness tradition have a history of creating a hierarchy of vices where divorce and remarriage is somewhere at the top. But you raised some other issues that are at the forefront of the Pentecostal church today, namely tongues[2], and LGBTQ people.
Benjamin: I too found myself moving outside of vocational ministry, but it was not because of divorce. I thought myself out of a job when I concluded most of the doctrine that I thought was important, really isn't that important. In my mind what is important are the principles of Jesus, which as Timothy said, is to love your neighbor as yourself and to take care of each other. Since I no longer pastor, I can say, I don't care about most of the PAOC doctrines like, initial evidence. Does my neighbour care that I get this right. When I say I don't care it isn't, I don't give it a thought. What I mean is, “if you believe something different, great.” I just try to, to be a good example. So, when I think about my life at the office today, my co-workers know my faith and they appreciate it. My walk of faith is so much simpler today.
Thomas “Tongues, yes that was a big one!” Like speaking in tongues being the initial evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. That was the one that I always struggled with. I remember getting into some trouble with some professors on this point. For some if you questioned it you were put in your place very quickly. But I would ask what do you do with those in the Bible who are filled with the Holy Spirit but do not speak in tongues? For sure I was given an answer, but I couldn’t help but feel the evidence was being made to fit the doctrine not the other way around.
Tertius: Well, I can say that while our church fully believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are also very deliberate in taking the pressure off to speak in tongues. Okay, we preach on it on occasion. And some people argue, “no, I think you're wrong.” And I go, “okay, that's fine.” And then weeks later, they're speaking in tongues and freaking out. We believe that as we seek after God it just happens. We will probably preach on it every year in some fashion, but there is no pressure.
Zetham: Theologically speaking, I think most of our churches are still in a kind of a milk stage of spirituality. We talk about spiritual gifts, and we talk about amazing ways to connect with God. And yet there are these simple things that we are fighting over. And when that happens speaking about the deeper concepts of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gifts, almost becomes irrelevant.
Reuben: Has my theology changed since Bible College? Sure, if you look at things like drinking. Today, I will not say it is absolutely taboo. I think Scripture still talks about intoxication. But is it permissible or not, yeah, I’ve changed. I've given grace to certain things a little bit more. I'm not so black and white. I probably don't grade sins the same as I did.
Back in Bible College days, we graded sins even though I probably would have said “sin is sin.” But mentally and internally we graded them. Whereas today I don't think I grade them as such. Most of what we call sinful is more of a temporal than an eternal thing. You know, premarital sex has significant ramifications in a temporal way, as we live on this earth. But, in terms of eternal ramifications? I would say, no, the grace of God extends beyond the temporal. So, I would see it in that perspective.
However, on homosexuality. I have not changed. I still think Scripture is clear on how God has designed relationships.
Abel: Reuben, are you then saying homosexuality is outside of God’s grace?
Clearly, we are in a season of litigating homosexuality in the church, and we look like fools to the rest of society. This has been a bit of a stretch for many. I have friends that are gay, and I'm happy for them when they can get married or whatever, right? Because they are good people. I'm not saying we can't make decisions about how homosexuality is treated and how the Bible defines that. But we are looking foolish to the rest of the world. On these questions I know you must take a stance on some things. But I don't think it is going to play out well, and I think it's hurting the church in the long run.
On our faith journey I want to raise up people who, on the obvious things, have a faith that is firm and sound. And on the issues that are less obvious, they are open to healthy discussion. And so that's kind of where I am with these issues.
What if Christianity is less about how much faith we can muster in God and more about a God who inexhaustibly believes in us? Eric Minton
Tertius. One of our greeters on Sunday morning is lesbian, and she lives in our neighborhood. It rocked our world, because again, you are raised with a certain set of beliefs and whatever, and you just kind of put them in a box. And suddenly, you know, we're taking her out for lunch. And she's like, encouraging me and it feels like she's speaking into my life. And I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, what is happening.” And so, it's led me to read books.
So officially we are like, “Yeah, she loves Jesus.” This, I know. She’s a wonderful Christian. She was actually a youth pastor near here. And if I sit down and have a theological debate about it, I will lose. I won't be able to out-talk her or out-think her in this area. So, we have just said, “We don't want to block you from Jesus, even if we disagree.” And she has basically said you don't have to agree with my lifestyle but “can I still attend your church?” And I said this is your church, you are welcome.
We haven't ironed out what official roles she can have in our church. Will she one day lead worship on Sunday? I haven't perfectly formed an answer to these questions right now. I simply don't want to block her from Jesus. And I don't want to compromise whatever compromise means. I don't want to condone anything, and I don't want to block anything. So here we are.
And so, what I've been saying is, we were never asked to uphold holiness and righteousness. Jesus upholds holiness and righteousness. He died for that. He's only asked us to love. And I'm not saying this is theologically correct. I'm still working through it. But I feel like much of it for me has crumbled. Because Jesus never asked me whatsoever to answer for somebody else's sin. My role is to love them the way Jesus would love them and do what I can to bring them into a stronger relationship with Jesus, where the Holy Spirit then convicts what needs convicting.
Phoebe: I have many friends who are gay. People come into your life, and invariably they shape your faith journey, and you shape theirs. That’s a huge part of it. My faith is bigger than a church building or a denomination. There is a strength and faith that comes from other Christians that I have come to learn is very important, but the Christians that influence me are those who are open minded and honest with no bullshit as they struggle with the same doubts, fears and questions as everyone else – like AA Christians.
Boaz. Everything changed for me when my son came out gay. Love has this crazy way of trumping the issues that divide us. Love turns the light on. In a hallway without light everything is a potential threat. It is pitch black we cannot see around the corners, or the stairs. If we bump into someone in the dark, we feel threatened. But turn the lights on, they’re just stairs, and we know how to navigate stairs. And when you see someone walking with the light on, you stick to your side, you understand it is just someone trying to go up and down just like me. I love my son, maybe if the church would turn the lights on, there would be less fear and more love for LGBTQ individuals and anyone else who lives on the margins.
Mary I still remember professor, some of those discussions that we had in class. I remember when we talked about the gender of God, is God male or female? And you played that song “if God was One of Us.” and half the class got upset. I couldn't understand why. Because I was like, Yes, that's absolutely right. This song is what the world is crying out for. And that's theology. You brought a very different angle for me trying to understand God.
Moderator: Mary, that is a good thought to end this discussion today. In the Gospel of Matthew Jesus gives his disciples what we have dubbed “the great commission to make disciples”, but his last words were “remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” “What if Christianity is less about how much faith we can muster in God and more about a God who inexhaustibly believes in us?[3]
[1] Divorce was a common factor for graduates leaving and not returning to vocational ministry. In some cases, it was the cause of not returning to church or if they did it was in another denomination. [2] At the time of these interviews, the recent changes to the Statement of Essential Truths (SOET) had not been made. This is a topic I have some history in writing about. See my chapter on the history of tongues in the PAOC, See also my paper “Tongues as a Blush in the Presence of God” published in the Journal of Pentecostal Theology as part of a symposium on Tongues. Again, both of these manuscripts are before the changes in SOET. [3] Eric Minton, It’s Not You, It’s Everything (Minneapolis: Broadleaf Books, 2022):138.
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